Originally by: CCP Soundwave

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We cannot currently put level four agents into 0.0 stations owned by players. I completely agree that it would be a very good solution, as they are one of the few non-finite resources, but it's simply not possible at present. I can promie you that it is high on the list of stuff many of us would love to see, though.

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Originally by: CCP Soundwave

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We certainly have ideas on how to expand the upgrade system, and everything like number of sites, upkeep cost etc can easily be adjusted, based on feedback (like this thread \o/)

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Originally by: Tia Tzu

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Face it all you big alliances, CCP are changing things because you are making the game so boring..

If you won't be able to hold all the space you do now, then thats a good thing and really the whole point.

Things need shaking up in 0.0, atm its just the same old vested interests that have been there for years hoarding all the isk from moon mining.

And lol at all you ppl (mostly from goons) who say mining is pointless and ratting is the only worthwhile method of making isk, you are just so self centered you cant see past the end of your own noses.

It's tragic all you rank and file have no clue about the bigger picture cos it's your alliance leaders that have been coining it in behind your backs for years. While making even simple ship reimbursements for mandatory ops like getting blood from a stone.

CCP are trying to do you a favour

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Originally by: Vivian Azure

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If I post this with my main, which I'm not allowed to post with anyways in the forums, then I'll get kicked out for arguing against my leadership. That's why I'm posting with an alt, and just because it's an alt doesn't make my arguments worth any less.

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Originally by: Irongut

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[ ] YES
OR
[ ] NO:
Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/time/effort) than highsec L4 mission running.

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Originally by: Vivian Azure

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One account is making money for myself, the other one is making money for the corp/alliance. Just to clarify on this for you.

And tbh, I couldn't care less, if 0.0 is profitable or not for me personally. 0.0 is 100% corp/alliance-wallet.

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Originally by: Qlanth

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Originally by: Vivian Azure

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Originally by: Kaldor Mintat

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A last note: i hear alot about about having alts for mission running and trading in highsec to earn isk. Nothing wrong with this in general but the point is you should NOT NEED to have that to be able to support yourself.

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Be prepared to be trolled by me, the high sec mission runner who lies about my fascist ceo and my knowledge of the game.

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You cannot possibly be suggesting that every person playing this game needs two characters to do it "correctly". If you think that CCP is designing game mechanics based on the assumption that every subscriber is using two accounts you are wrong.

If you think that every person must have two accounts to enjoy the game you are wrong.

If you think that 0.0 is not broken because everyone should have another character in highsec running missions you are wrong.

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Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted

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Originally by: ShadowMaiden

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Ok, CCP slashes the proposed fees by 75%, but you lose Local, sound fair Alliance carebears?

Also, cry more.

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Why would anyone but pirates roaming in enemy territory want to remove local? With these upgrades being PvE oriented as they are removing local would only result in even more ppl running to high-sec for ISK, as you've just made PvE a hell of a lot more dangerous.

It's true 0.0 is (was?) all about PvP, but if you practically require people to PvE in order to keer their home, at least make it remotely possible to do so (with a net profit, preferably a decent one at that).

At the very least, removing local will even further chase off carebears, while inviting them to 0.0 seemed like the main goal of the patch.

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Originally by: Tesal

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Originally by: Arkady Sadik

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For those who missed it, current SiSi prices (which can change still, of course):

TCU: 1m ISK / day
Hub: 5m ISK / day
Jump bridge: 10m ISK / day
Cyno gen: 2m ISK / day
Cyno jammer: 20m ISK / day
CSAA: 1m ISK / day

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Really?

OK, that throws out the idea that the little guy won't be able to afford Sov. People can stop "defending" them now.

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Originally by: Mcon99

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CCP,

I please ask you to ignore the ramblings of the large 0.0 alliances who in one breath say they want much more settlement and diversity in 0.0 yet at the same time do not want their space shrunk, legacy profits wiped out or super capitals nerfed.

Welcome to the new landscape, where sov is more contestable, moon goo income is distributed, and alliances have to been all around pvp, pve and mining, and actually LIVING in their space!

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Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal

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Originally by: Manfred Sideous

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CCP Please I ask you please push back the launch of Dominion. A very good majority of players are unhappy with what you have showed us so far.

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A majority of vocal forum goers seem unhappy. That isn't the same as a majority of players. (in general forums are visited by a minority to start with)

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Originally by: Jovialmadness

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Quote:

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You should probably display your alliance and corp then, because otherwise it just looks like someone with no clue trying to pretend otherwise (hint, you still are).

I understand you fine. You think that making 0.0 have a worse risk/reward ratio will encourage people to enter it. Most people would call this things like "stupid" or "illogical" but lets try putting one and one together and see what happens. Added costs drive people from 0.0, added rewards encourage them to come. Just about everyone else wants 0.0 to be restructured such that large alliances hold much smaller amounts of territory, but with rewards justifying the difficulty of 0.0. 0.0 alliances holding smaller amounts of territory for greater rewards will encourage new groups to enter to take advantages of the rewards themselves, and everyone will be happy.

Lets move onto what you want.

You apparently want 0.0 to be cost-prohibitive such that large numbers of people will leave it, in hopes that large numbers of empire players will suddenly enter it to make less money, but with the added bonus of randomly being blown up.

Conclusion: You're pretty dumb.

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Yea you are right. I am dumb for wanting your alliance to suffer.

See this is what im talking about, you have totally missed the point. Its like a communist and capitalist argueing whose gov't is better. I simply believe that 0.0 should be an earned space that provides basic income with ADDED COST to make it hard to live there so that when ******s get into nap/nonnap mode you cant just run around like a damn chicken with your head cut off trying to control space like in the past. NOW IT WILL CHANGE. Now we can't just pos spam like in the past...now taking space FFS of taking space might actually mean something considering there is serious cost to it. But none of that means jack to you...all you care about is what you can make in the systems as far as income. F... that.

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Originally by: Bud Johnson

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Sure is whine in here.
Adapt or die.

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Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang

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Super Whopper pretty much said what I wanted to say. But yes, you're a moron that doesn't seem to understand that after the patch, especially considering the moon mining nerfs, risk free high sec will be more profitable than 0.0 That's all there is to it.

And no, taking space just for the sake of having my alliance name appear temporarily on a map that people sometimes look at in an internet space game does not excite me or anyone else with a clue.

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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No actually the part i love is when null sec ppl whine.

Im not sure what part amuses me most really. Maybe its the moon goo nerf forcing them to actually work for their ships. Maybe its their total incompetence in making isk through normal methods. Maybe its their utter refusal to even consider recruiting lower sp members who can farm for them- and be taxed to fund their pvp wing.

Or maybe its this 112 page WAHHHH fest.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: Future Mutant

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The second problem-inequality of isk per hour in null vs highsec. Tbh i personally think most are underestimating the potential isk/hour in null and overestimating the isk/hour in high sec missioning. A few things could possibly be changed to boost ratting income- but some of the expectations ive read here are a bit over the top.

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People may underestimate the nullsec income, but that's because it's largely random/grind-based, and prone to sudden interruption, making it difficult to measure. It's also very limited in the number of people it can maintain, which is at the heart of the issue. The income potential of highsec is very well mapped out.

The expectations people have is that the nullsec income sources are (or should be) better than highsec. This may be true now, with the larger complexes and well-groomed rat chains, but those cannot be used as a point of comparison because they aren't part of the upgrade system and will be the same as they always were. So when CCP comes in here and says that the best ratting improvements will be "on par" with high-sec L4s, that hole argument collapses. It no longer matters what the income estimates are ù it will be the same for both by very design. This falls so short of any reasonable expectation you can have on nullsec that it's outright laughable.

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Originally by: Gordo Fartis

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So far most people have been analyising Dominion by focusing in one aspect or the other.

It seems to me that there will be a strong incentive for the current alliances to get renters in their space in order to get the space to imporve which means that the PVP members will not have to bother either mining/ratting or doing plexes in the fully controled areas.

Advatages for alliance is more PvP, lower cost of items as more carebear activities means more demand and more industrial people moving in. Or if the alliances get well organised their own industrial wing supplying a growing marked which means more ISK for the alliance. The only problem I see is that current residents will have to move further afield to rat/plexing etc (Which by the way is what happens now)

Big disadvantage is that renters are notoriously flaky and the alliance will have to make a big effort to protect them. i.e. fast response to attacks, more roaming gangs etc etc ==> more PVP

As for the ISK generation potential of LVL 4s versus 0.0 I have read several people suggesting a 30 to 55 million ISK per hour for level 4s. The 30 million I can just believe it possible (if you are lucky), but to achieve the 55 million it will be necesary that you can consistenly complete 3/4 high paying missions and salvage in an hour on your own. Even with two ships (one killing and one salvaging I found this very difficult). I have found that it is easier to achieve this in 0.0 even with all the risk that is involved (FUN) and the the need to do it with friends (most of the time)

From my poitn of view everything in Dominion is linked. Claiming sovereingty is expensive which requires making money (moons, rents, taxes etc), which requires renteres, which require markets, which requires more industry, which requires active defense -->resulting in more PVP, lower prices, more risk and therefore more fun

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Originally by: The Tallman

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Edited by: The Tallman on 17/11/2009 01:21:31
There's constructive criticism and then there's simple questions.

Why is CCP so afraid of letting people make reasonable isk in game?

REASONABLE PERSONAL INCOME IN 0.0 SHOULD BE 30%-50% HIGHER PER HOUR THAN EMPIRE!

If you simply made that increase you would get people out of empire and into 0.0. And it's reasonable considering the time/effort/expense you have to take to hold 0.0 space.

SO....
Why does CCP keep aiming 0.0 income to equal LVL 4's in empire instead improve 0.0? You got to wonder.... Here's another question...

Why does it just so happen that with decent skills most people can rat, mission or mine and make around 20-30 mil per hour? Three totally different professions but very similar income. Hmmm wow how did that happen...

Simple answer:
CCP would rather Nerf personal income from LVL 4's than improve personal/corp 0.0 income. Why?

My guess: CCP is a company, their end goal is to make money. They do that by keeping people in game. The number one thing people do in game is try to make isk. So the longer you spend doing that, the more time you are in game.

So CCP probably feels this is acceptable time vs reward. If you want an internet space ship (battleship) you should spend 8 to 10 hours earning isk to buy it. Similar to one day at work. Until that attitude changes, you won't see much if any improvement in your isk per hour income in 0.0.

In the end, that is CCP's mistake. Instead of rewarding the thrill seekers, they will nerf the cautious.

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Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

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The new guys instead, have to start from zero and don't get first dibs at the good systems. They are supposed to somehow grab lands from current owners *and* live in complete utter garbage space until they upgrade it, aka be in the worst adverse situation. Of course the former holders will just watch these newcomers improve their system 1 jump away (in case the newcomers are so stupid not to see the inevitable outcome that is) and NEVER do anything, right?

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